Boosting Our Gold Holdings

June 29, 2010 by  
Filed under Investing

We made a small adjustment in allocation of assets in our taxable investment accounts. I can’t say I feel great about it but that’s OK.

Mrs. ToughMoneyLove has been closely following gold prices and periodically mentioning them to me. I read about gold regularly (it’s hard not too in this economy). I have written here and at Go To Retirement about my lack of faith in gold as a true investment. We had some exposure to gold in our ownership of some commodity and natural resources funds. That apparently not enough to satisfy my beloved.

Anyway, one of our more conventional holdings – a dividend ETF – had been performing very poorly and way below the expectations we had when we bought it. It also replicated assets we own in our tax deferred accounts. I was tired of watching it move down or sideways.

What if the gold bugs who predict gold to hit 5,000 were right?

So I decided to make a defensive move and make Mrs. ToughMoneLove happy at the same time. I sold the dividend ETF and used that cash to buy shares in the SPDR Gold Trust EFT (GLD) on a small dip. Owning shares in GLD is the closest thing to owning gold bullion without having to keep it in your personal storage vault. I have no interest in maintaining a stash of gold coins in the house.

So now instead of wondering if I should buy more gold, I will be asking myself when I should sell it. That has always been a problem for me in analyzing gold as a long term investment.

The odds are we will not sell it until we are ready to spend the cash on a non-investment. Maybe that will be after gold prices make another major run up. If so, will that mean that our economy is in the tank? I hope not.


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52 Responses to “Boosting Our Gold Holdings”
  1. concerned752 says:

    Ah, marital bliss. Good post. :)

    There’s a good FAQ about a reasonable approach to gold here:

    http://crawlingroad.com/blog/2009/10/13/permanent-portfolio-25-gold-allocation-faq/

    There’s also a helpful comment regarding concerns about GLD and a suggested alternative.

    In fact, Crawling Road’s entire gold category is a great read for non-gold bug gold owners.

    http://crawlingroad.com/blog/tag/gold/

    Disclosure: Not my blog, but I do use the Permanent Portfolio allocation.

  2. Joe P. says:

    There’s one way in which I’m bothered by buying gold as an investment. Part of the “hedging” effect of gold is that it will be the most valuable thing around if economic damage becomes widespread enough and all other investments trend to zero. However, in a scenario like that, I’m having trouble believing that it will be easy (or even possible) to redeem your GLD shares for either their new cash value (which would have a lot of zeroes on it) or for the gold bullion that it represents.

    I don’t think that we will actually face such a scenario, but the requirements to hedge against it are quite a bit harder than simply buying gold.

  3. Rick Beagle says:

    There has been a decidedly large amount of air shooting from the Right wing media proclaiming gold as the safe harbor for the collapse of the American dollar (or something akin to that). Turns out they are just hawking for one of their sponsors to huge effect (criminal investigation underway, and blah, blah fools and their money)…. <>

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/05/glenn-beck-goldline-weiner

    Oh, I’m sorry, that is one of those “liberal media” sites. Here is one that is distinctly right winged calling the gold buyers nuts, and predicting a bubble:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/top-macquarie-strategist-gold-is-a-dangerous-bubble-and-prices-could-still-grow-many-fold-from-here-2010-6

    And while we are dancing on right wing sites, here is the typical message that they have been sending out day after day which explains their desire to buy gold, but this time they finally think Dr. Krugman might be right:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/david-rosenberg-paul-krugmans-doom-warning-is-spot-on-2010-6

    And of course Paul Krugman is right, but his solution to the problem, which in a nutshell is spend during the bleak times/save during surpluses, is wrong (or so they say).

    http://dailyreckoning.com/deflation-inflation-and-why-paul-krugman-fears-austerity/

    Funny how the right wing is quoting Paul this week. Here is the article that prompted their gas bagging:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/28/opinion/28krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

    So, we repeat history with disastrous fiscal policies by “born again fiscal hawks”, and find ourselves surprised that it provides the same results as it did the last time. Indeed, invest in Gold – the Gumps are out in full force- might as well have some tangible assets for the long haul.

    Peace.
    Rick Beagle

  4. MasterPo says:

    Joe P. said it before I could.

    Your ETF is a good trading vehicle. But as a real protection (don’t like the word “hedge” in this scenario) against economic turmoil it’s worthless.

    Physcial ownership of gold (and to a lesser extent silver) isn’t all that hard. It doesn’t take much to put a safe in your house and keep coins or ingots in it. You don’t have to go end-of-the-world crazy. But physcial gold is better than paper. If you can afford both might be a good idea too.

    Remember: Counries come and go but gold remains.

    Heaven help us all in 2011. (regardless of what happens in November)

  5. Rick Beagle says:

    Hmm…. Let me catch you up. The folks at Fox (especially Beck) start ranting and raving about how the economy is going to collapse thereby creating panic amongst his foolish listeners. He then uses this paranoia to steer his foolish followers to a corporate sponsor. A few do well off the deal, while the majority get screwed.

    The rest of the comment shows a concerted effort by Rethugs (such as yourself) to paint doom and gloom while espousing the same policies that worked wonders during the last two depressions. Unfortunately, the constituency, undermined by years of cuts to our education system, seem darned well determined to embrace these buffoons completely unaware that they are voting, and voicing opinions against their own self interest.

    In conclusion, I give up trying to paint some sort of lucidity into this madness by suggesting, sure buy some gold.

    I realize that critical thinking along with links to back up a point is something you are not used to, but honestly, try to keep up next time.

    Peace.
    Rick Beagle

    PS My house is off the grid, paid for, sitting on some land (not a lot mind you), and I can produce my own food (because my bethren liberals and I took care to insure that the area around here remains viable to support life). Perhaps, with a bit more fracking, you can get your gas directly from your tap…. oh wait, that is natural gas – sorry – maybe you can get a conversion kit or something (you did see the excerpt where the farmer lit the “water” coming out of his tap didn’t you?). Frack baby frack, and sit on your gold… meanwhile us loonies out west will just keep growing food.

    • Rick Beagle says:

      Not sure how this comment got bumped out of line, but it was in response to MasterPo’s “what the hell did your comment mean”. Sorry for the out of order issue.

  6. Rob Bennett says:

    My biggest problem with gold, is that for gold to do really well, the economy has to do really poorly. And if the economy does really poorly, what kind of a society is it that we are going to have in which to be enjoying all these gold profits?

    I want our society to work. If it doesn’t work, I’m not sure being rich is going to help that much.

    Rob

    • Rick Beagle says:

      very good point.

    • MasterPo says:

      There is always a market for gold. Good economy, bad economy – good society, bad society.

      I have no idea how to use gold to barter for say food but it’s commonly done else where in the world and we will learn too if needed.

      No one ever regrets owning physical gold.

  7. MasterPo says:

    Ricky – You honestly think you can live off the land? You’re clueless. You have any idea how many acres need to be planted to grow enough food for just 1 adult for a year? And that doesn’t even count food for animals, trade/barter (gotta figure that), and the inevitability of a bad crop so you need a surplus.

    More over, if a SHTF scenario happens I sure hope you live waaaaaaaay out in the boonies faaaaaaaar off any kind of main roads ’cause hoards of people will flock out the cities into the country side. People starving will do anything. History teaches us that. And if it happens in winter – think Mad Max.

    ps- How funny you as a liberal profess to be ready to be totally self-sufficient yet I bet years ago if someone told you they were stock piling canned food, water, medicine etc in their basement you probably thought them a right-winf nut! Just love the dripping hypocracy on the left: I do what is best for me and tell YOU what is best for you to do!

    Keep it coming.

    • Rick Beagle says:

      The problem with you, is that you only think of you. Singular. One person.

      Remember when neighbors were more than the strange people in the house next door? It is called a community, and we would do just fine if the bottom fell out.

      And I assure you, there is a big difference between working within your community to help your neighbors, improve everyones’ quality of life (through good eats, less reliance on fossil fuels, reduction of pollution), and holing up in a bunker.

      It is hypocrisy only in your tainted mind.

      Finally, one last note on this matter, while you continue to support the villainy of BP, and encourage the continued swap of our young soldiers’ blood for oil — I chose a different path.

      Guess which one of us is the vet?

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

  8. averagejoe says:

    Yup, those people in Greece, France, Germany and Canada sure look neighborly. See how they all band together and take care of each other and work together and get all community-like together. When did rioting, bashing in stores and police brains become a community organizing event (all because their benefits are being cut)? Geeze, we American aren’t like that. When our economy falters and finally falls, we Americans are going to be suave, cool and collected. All those oil rig employees (100,000+) who can’t work on shallow rigs anymore (despite winning their appeal in federal court) will be out of a job soon and they are just going to be so calm and cool. Hey! They’ve got that $100million from BP (despite that they need $330million per week) to spread around. After they lose their homes and their businesses and have their cars towed and possessions repossessed nor know where or when they are going to get their next meal, ah!!! they’ll probably do some yoga stances and deep meditation, right?

    Already, now that Congress has put an end to the 99 weeks of unlimited UI benefits, as hundred of thousands of people weekly lose their weekly checks can’t you just hear their sigh of relief. Why, they’ll just rely on their friendly neighbors and communities to help them out. All 2 million of them and counting. Nope. I haven’t heard one peep out of any of them voicing their discontent. Nah, there are no protesters here, no demonstrations at our states’ capital or at town halls across America. Everyone is home at night watching ‘So You Think You Can Dance’ re-runs.

    All G20 leaders like from India, France, Germany, Italy et al have told Obama that his way (borrowing and spending) is wrong and that he should rein in spending, cut benefits, stop borrowing and become more fiscally responsible BUT the inexperienced, community organizer, Mr Obama, knows better than anybody else on the globe about what’s right for America. Obama is planning on another do-nothing stimulus whereby he borrows money, gives it away in benefits and expects the few remaining working people in America (and their offspring) to pay the (Tax) bill.

    The disaster in the gulf will lead to a dust-bowl like depression. Use your brain. Think it through. Where are all these unemployed people going to go? BP can’t pick up the bills forever and neither can the US Government. Think these people are going to be kind and all community and neighborly like as they lose their livlihoods, homes, families and everything they had every known since their childhoods?

    Why, Mr. Obama is a genius I tell you! A genius!

    It doesn’t matter if it’s coming from the left or the right. It doesn’t matter anymore who’s fault it is. Look at the facts: America is over leveraged, out of balance and out of money. America is going to fall. It is already cracking at the seems. It’s citizens are already rising up. You can’t reason with hungry people nor desperate people. If any of you have taken a history lesson, you would have found out that this is the way to topple governments and take over countries. How many leaders starved their citizens (Chairman Mao anyone?) in order to gain control and overthrow. How many governments seized the farmlands and starved out it’s people Mr. Beagle? Don’t think you’re so insulated and protected. And please don’t think that nothing bad can ever happen to you here in god damn America (thank you, Rev Wright)!

    That’s what’s wrong with (progressive) liberals today. They are all kumbaya and everything. Look around you dude. Your policies aren’t working and you’re all falling apart in shambles. And Obama is the leader of the pack. Europe is fleeing from socialism and America is heading straight for it. Yup, Obama is a genius.

    I wouldn’t be buying paper shares of gold. I’d be buying the actual coins. Both gold & silver. They’re small and are easily stored. Unless of course, Obama, like FDR confiscates all the gold coins, like back during the depression. Then what?

    BP may be a villain but what’s Obama? It’s more than 73 days since the beginning of the oil spill and where is Obama? If your roof was leaking would you be waiting around for the mfg of the roof to come and fix it? Would you wait more than 73 days for the contractor to fix it? Wouldn’t you be finding and hiring another contractor to fix your leaky roof rather than watch your house be destroyed and float away? You’d fix it first and then deal with the mfg later, right? Common sense, right? So, explain to me how anyone can allow America’s valuable shoreline and people be destroyed? Only someone who despises America, it’s people, it’s free enterprise and yes, oil companies can sit on the sidelines and do nothing more than play with tar balls.
    Obama is off bantering with Putin and Russia while we just uncovered 10 Russian spies living amongst us (for decades) and stealing our American secrets. What does that make Obama? Obama is giving millions of aid to Mexico while Americans are being killed, slaughtered and kidnapped on the border states. Obama is rewarding Mexico and Russia yet, these countries are destroying America. What does that make Obama?

    Go buy gold people. And go buy a handgun! Your American days are numbered.

  9. MasterPo says:

    averagejoe – Well said.

    Ricky – People who are hungry and cold will do ANYTHING. Love thy neighbor, sure. If you and your neighbors make an arrangement before SHTF to prepare and help each other out it *might* work. But most people won’t make such plans in advance (unfortunately).

    I’m not talking about something like helping your neighbor shovel out his driveway after a blizard when you have a snow blower and he only has a cheap shovel. I’m mean little or no food, water, heat, etc. and no sign of relief! Love thy neighbor – or fear they neighbor? (!)

    This is a financial blog so look at it financially: How many people have spent their lives doing the right thing and putting away properly for their retirement and a rainy day? And how many others have spent every dime on xbox and grande moca lattes instead? So when something unforeseen happens or age finally catches up, the formeer group is prepared (at least to some extent) while the latter is cries “It’s not fair!” and *demands* taxing the former to pay themselves. Now remove money and make that food, water, engery, heat, etc.

    You ever watch “Jericho”? More truth than fiction I’m afraid.

    Perhaps, one time in America you’re vision was the majority and mine was the exception. Not today. Just the opposite. :-(

    Pray we never actually find out who is right (though I think we will more sooner than later).

    • Rick Beagle says:

      MasterPo.

      “I’m mean little or no food, water, heat, etc. and no sign of relief! Love thy neighbor – or fear they neighbor?”

      There you go, a reason for us to continue providing unemployment benefits, and spend money getting people to work on long term projects.

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

  10. Rick Beagle says:

    averagejoe – you are an idiot.

    First of all, you apparently have zero training in basic economics, so before I even begin lecturing you on economics 101, turn off Fox, and pick up a book…. First year college economics 101 is just dandy.

    In an effort to lead you down the merry path, here is a thought. We have had thirty years of economic suggestions from the Right. Our economy is outsourced, deregulated to the point of corruption, trillions in debt, bloated government, and the largest gap between rich and poor. None of those points are arguable, what is however stunning is your continued reliance on the gurus’ of the right for financial advice. Again, turn off Fox, and a good non-partisan book might help you make some headway.

    And one last thing, if I spent ten to forty years putting money into unemployment, why shouldn’t I be allowed to collect some of it while waiting for an opportunity/job to come along? The gray haired workers are the hardest hit by your hard line mentality, and they, sir, paid their dues.

    As for my comments on neighborly help, consider this, my community, city, and state will work together to get through rough times. The right winged fiscal fools when confronted by poverty jump out buildings.

    And for the record, this progressive railed when we gave gifts to the banks, railed while they patted each other on the back and issued absurd bonuses. Equally, I am irate at the general lack of support by the conservative base to correct failures in our fiscal regulation policies, and their willingness to forgive BP by using tax payer money to clean up BP’s malfeasance. But spend a fraction of what it would cost to help their big business friends, nope, you conservatives just scream get a job.

    Consider NJ under the new budget of that Rethug governor. A retired person on a fixed income of 40k will see his/her tax rate go up around $1.5k year. While a person making over $1 million will have their taxes cut by over 11k. Does that seem right to you? Does that seem like a fiscally sound policy? (that fool was encouraged to run for President today)…. Trickle down I suppose, but it looks like a continued assault on the middle class by Repubs.

    Peace.
    Rick Beagle.

  11. averagejoe says:

    Whenever a liberal can’t win an argument,they call people names. So, I’m an idiot. Yeah. So, what?

    The economic crisis hasn’t hit the fan fully yet and Beagle is already fighting with me. Imagine if we were face to face?

    Yup. Kumbaya.

    As always, liberals, when pressed, show their true hands. (and they’re usually empty).

    • Rick Beagle says:

      You seem comfortable with the title, I suspect I am not the first, nor last to refer to you as an idiot.

      But you know what, perhaps I was a bit premature, so let me back up and ask you to provide any thing resembling proof of your assertions? Honestly, I think you are just another Rethug troll trying to get a rise, but hey, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt. Care you to back up your comments with anything resembling proof or a thought process?

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

  12. Jack Clark says:

    “As always, liberals, when pressed, show their true hands.”

    And the Right shows when pressed that they are the party of no ideas and of letting the economic elite run the show while the rest of the country suffers.

    Simple facts.

    1. Obama inherited Bush’s economic train wreck.

    2. The majority of Americans were in worse shape economically after 4 years of Bush I and much worse after 8 years of Bush II.

    3. The Democrats while their ideas are wrong a lot of the time are at least trying to offer help, assistance, and ideas.

    Whereas the Republicans are offering nothing except being the party of “No”.

    Come November, yes the Tea Party candidates will do well, but the pure Republicans will get waffled.

    What has the GOP offered in the last 12 months?

    Zero.

    • MasterPo says:

      Obama “inherited” NOTHING! That lie has just got to stop!!

      He well knew what he was getting into! Hell – he *campaigned* on ‘fixing’ all the problems!

      And your point #3 is as ridiculous as trying to put out a house fire with a squirt gun – at least you’re trying, right?

      ps- Sometimes a flat “NO!” is perfectly fine. When your kids demand candy do you counter offer with a compromise or just tell them no? I bet the latter.

      • Rick Beagle says:

        MasterPo.

        Oh he inherited a mess, and Bush is the gift that keeps giving. I will agree that he was naive in assuming that the right would put aside partisan differences and help rebuild the country. Instead the right wing went bat shit crazy and have done everything that they can to insure failure for political gain.

        As I have repeatedly stated, we are in this together, and the current Tea Party/Rethug crop is an embarrassment. Two years, and they are looking for you to vote more of them in, even though they did NOTHING. Oh I am sorry, they did obfuscate, lie, misdirect, block, redirect, and collected a pay check from tax payers for their lack of work.

        You may disagree with what the Dems have done, but there is no denying that they have worked their collective butts off. Some would even argue that they have had to work twice as hard having to drag around the dead weight of the Rethugs.

        Peace.
        Rick Beagle

  13. MasterPo says:

    Ricky: “you apparently have zero training in basic economics, so before I even begin lecturing you on economics 101″

    Coming from you that’s precious!

    I ask you again: Show me 1 just 1 example of a nation sooooooooooo deep in debt and soooooooooooooo heavy in unemployment that raised taxes and thereby got it self back into economic health and prosperity?

    (Don’t brother re-quoting that historical revisionist person from the other thread about Reagan and taxes)

    • Rick Beagle says:

      MasterPo,

      You keep reaching for this talking point, so let me set you straight – Ronald Reagan. It is not some revisionist thinking, it is the scandalous truth.

      Okay, now it is my turn. Show me one time in history where the execution of a war, let alone two was accompanied by a reduction to the tax base? It is simple, if you want to wage war, you need to fund it. Giving a trillion dollars back to the wealthiest of Americans without reductions in expenditures is foolish.

      Second. It is my humble understanding that in times of plenty, the government should reign in its expeditures and pay down its debt. And in recession/depression periods the governments job is to spend money and therefore provide a crutch for the engine of our economy. Hmm, Economics 101, history of the depression, and a cadre of nobel economists seem to agree. I think the deficit hawks got their way in the late thirties, and heck so did Hoover… care to guess how that turned out?

      Third. What is your take on the governor in your neck of the woods who reduced the tax bill of people making over a million dollars by approximately $11k, but increased taxes on those making forty thousand by an addition $1.5k? You think that will be helpful? Did you see that he is being begged by Fox to run for President?

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

      • MasterPo says:

        I don’t know what tax reduction you mean.

        Gov Patterson enacted a millionare’s tax that got Limbaugh, among other millionares, to leave NYS for good. And he (Patterson) was gleeful about it!

        If you’re refering to NJ Gov Christie, overall I love his style!

        At a recent town hall meeting where he spoke of needing to reduce state pensions, when a state worker yelled about not being paid what they (felt) were worth he said quote “If you don’t like it then get another job!”

        LOL!!

  14. MasterPo says:

    pps- Ricky: “, if I spent ten to forty years putting money into unemployment, why shouldn’t I be allowed to collect some of it while waiting for an opportunity/job to come along”

    That last part – WAITING for an opportunity to come along – is the point.

    If unemp is 3 years, 4, years, 5 years or more where’s the fire under your seat to go out and FIND that opportunity instead of “waiting” for it?!

    I was one of the thousands of IT workers out of work soon after 9/11.

    In spite of sending out dozens of resumes a week and even going on a few interviews there were no jobs. That became painfully apparent when I would see the same headhunter jobs postings on Dice, Monster, NYT etc week in/week out. Just collecting resumes and keeping their name in the market place.

    I took the Bush 3-month unemployment benny extension. It helped. No denying that. But knowing it was only 3 months also held a greater urgency for me to find some kind of employment! As the weeks quickly ticked down I even began entertaining the idea of non-IT work just to get some kind of cashflow. Maybe a night warehouse job that would at least let me have time during the day to send resumes and go on interviews.

    A few days (literally) before my unemp expired I finally took a truly crappy job. But it was a job that paid the bills (barely!) and I could have stayed at longer if needed (it was secure, relatively speaking).

    But now with unemp at 3 years and going on more, where is the urgency?!

    And more interestingly (or concerning), if VP Biden is right that 8 million jobs are gone and never coming back then just how long will unemp go for? Why not 10 years? 20? 30?!?!?! If 8 million people are never going to find their work again what is to be done with them?!

    • Rick Beagle says:

      MasterPo.

      I want you to imagine the feeling that you had when you were out of work, and diligently looking. Of course, my conservative friend and I think you are a parasite for taking unemployment. Lost your job? If you were any good and had managed your career, we would not have had to support your Cadillac welfare habit. Hell, I bet you are an illegal immigrant.

      Any of that sound rude to you? Welcome to the conservative talking points, and a complete lack of empathy for somewhere between 10-20 percent of the population (who must all be slackers according to your logic).

      Here is a thought for you, why don’t you run down to the unemployment office and yell some of that conservative rhetoric at them? That’s right, instead of sitting behind your anonymous moniker complaining about people you do not know, head on down and talk to a few. Perhaps you can save taxpayers some money by sharing your pearls of wisdom.

      As to your question about how long, as long as it takes. And for the record, where in the heck is that job bill? Oh yeah, blocked by rethugs and dinos?

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

      PS Just for disclosure sake, I have never ever been on unemployment, nor have I ever been supported by the Feds with the exception of my military time.

      • MasterPo says:

        ZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        (That’s the sound of my point going over your head – I’ll try to type slower for you)

        It was *BECAUSE* of my unemp about to run out that I took a not-so-great job rather then pass and wait. That’s the point! That is what we conservatives mean by ‘Paying people NOT to work’.

        If unemp is now 3+ years why not pass on jobs in the *hope* your dream job will be around the corner any moment?

        But you still didn’t – as always – answer my question:

        If VP Biden is right that 8 MILLLION jobs are gone and will never come back then just how long do you expect the gov to pay unemp?

        At what point does unemp = welfare?!

        ps- FYI – In NYS the *state* pays 6 months of unemp. which my employer and I paid into.

        pps- And for your edification, I *have* told people out on years of unemp “Go get a friggin job already!” to their face. :-P

        • Rick Beagle says:

          MasterPo.

          Have you been dropped on your head? Reread your comments, and tell me how you can acknowledge that there are no jobs, and then suggest that people are looking for “dream jobs”. Here is a newsflash for you, there are no jobs. The number of people who want to be on unemployment is truly low when compared to the number of people who want jobs.

          Now what are the rethugs doing about this? They block any job bill, block unemployment, and continue to provide money/tax breaks to the wealthiest of us. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few DINO’s who are corrupt as well, but geez, how can you support this?

          Peace.
          Rick Beagle

  15. Jack Clark says:

    “And your point #3 is as ridiculous as trying to put out a house fire with a squirt gun – at least you’re trying, right?
    ps- Sometimes a flat “NO!” is perfectly fine. When your kids demand candy do you counter offer with a compromise or just tell them no? I bet the latter.”

    But Po, when the party says No to everything simply based on ideological rhetoric that’s stupid.

    And like I said, in the last year the GOP has offered nothing in terms of ideas, fixes, or anything else. It’s just been No to whatever the Left has suggested.

    I’ll take the squirt gun as opposed to nothing. Currently the GOP is a dead party.

    “Obama “inherited” NOTHING! That lie has just got to stop!!”

    It’s not a lie you twit.

    The Shrub dug the economy into a hole for eight years.

    Obama followed Bush, so yes he inherited the hole that Bush and his team of “wizards” dug. And neither Obama or anyone else is going to get the economy out of the hole anytime soon.

    “(Don’t brother re-quoting that historical revisionist person from the other thread about Reagan and taxes)”

    It’s not historical revisionism when the info quoted to in that thread came from a Republican economist that worked for Regan and Bush I and said that Regan and Bush I’s taxing policies were harmful and not helpful.

    You’re just too clouded by rhetoric and talking points to see the truth.

    • MasterPo says:

      So in your philosophy if a woman is about to raped she shouldn’t resist and say “NO!” but instead counter offer with a drink first? Maybe a bite to eat too?

      Saying “No!” to ridiculous ideas is just perfectly fine.

      And if you haven’t notice the GOP *has* tried to offer ideas – extend tax cuts, cut the massive spending and borrowing, give back the unused TARP money to the people it’s been taxed from, or use the unused TARP for a 6 month SS tax-free period – but of course those don’t play well in liberal circles so from that POV it’s a non-issue.

      As for Reagan, liberals LOVE to slam him for CUTTING taxes. Now all of a sudden Reagan was a tax RAISER?! That is history revisionism.

      • Rick Beagle says:

        MasterPo,

        “As for Reagan, liberals LOVE to slam him for CUTTING taxes. Now all of a sudden Reagan was a tax RAISER?! That is history revisionism.”

        It is a matter of public record. Enough said on that nonsense.

        You believe that the Republicans are trying to give TARP back to the tax payers? They are trying to cut massive spending and borrowing by extending unfunded tax breaks for the wealthiest amongst us?

        Conservatives are being raped?! Republicans support:
        1) tax payers should pay for the oil spill in the Gulf. Nevermind that multiple industries have been destroyed, and an untold number of jobs have been irrevocably lost.
        2) no moratorium to prevent further damage on further exploratory drilling (total of 38 drill that are not producing a drop of oil).
        3) no improved regulation or accountability for those wall street masters that destroyed our economy.
        4) support citizens united

        but they are for:
        5) anything that would help main street. Job bills, credit card reform, health care reform, banking reform, unemployment benefits…..

        You did have one thing right, there are millions that are about to be unable to feed their families and themselves. I am pretty sure that history has plenty of examples of what happens after that happens, and it is also pretty clear on what happens to “pets” like you.

        Peace.
        Rick Beagle

  16. Jack Clark says:

    “If unemp is now 3+ years why not pass on jobs in the *hope* your dream job will be around the corner any moment?”

    IU is currently 99 weeks maximum.

    How does that equate to 3+ years?

  17. Jack Clark says:

    “So in your philosophy if a woman is about to raped she shouldn’t resist and say “NO!” but instead counter offer with a drink first? Maybe a bite to eat too?”

    Great example Po.

    Saying something like this shows how much a simple minded idiot you really are.
    That really has meaning in this discussion.

    “As for Reagan, liberals LOVE to slam him for CUTTING taxes. Now all of a sudden Reagan was a tax RAISER?! That is history revisionism.”

    But the truth is that Regan did both.

    He is responsible, adjusted for inflation, for both the largest tax cut ever in I believe ’81.
    Only to be followed by the largest tax increase ever in ’82.

    That’s not revisionist. It’s the facts.

    “And if you haven’t notice the GOP *has* tried to offer ideas – extend tax cuts, cut the massive spending and borrowing, give back the unused TARP money to the people it’s been taxed from, or use the unused TARP for a 6 month SS tax-free period – but of course those don’t play well in liberal circles so from that POV it’s a non-issue.”

    Make sure you put that has in ** because you statement is a complete lie.

    Massive spending and borrowing happened also under Regan, Bush I and Bush II so Obama is doing nothing the Right hasn’t done too. So don’t get pious that the Right is some how fiscally more responsible.

    Check out the facts on Bush II’s last three years in office and check his record in regards to massive spending and borrowing.

    Don’t forget who signed the Medicare prescription drug bill into law. That is the biggest boondoggle of spending to come down the pike in 30+ years.

    The Right has done zero, I repeat ZERO since Obama took office except to shoot down everything the Left has offered simply because it came from the Left.

    Face the facts Po, in November the GOP is going to get waffled at the ballot box because they have no good ideas, no new ideas, and have nothing to advance the country, advance their own agenda and the Left and the Tea Party candidates are going to take full advantage of it.

    • MasterPo says:

      In case you have forgotten, it’s Congress that controls the purse strings. Reagan cut taxes on the PROMISE from Congress – Democraticly controlled at the time – to cut spending later. That didn’t happen. Hence the problem.

      We can probably go at this all year. Bottom line: What’s past doesn’t justify what is being done NOW. Would you let your second child get away with doing something wrong becase he/she saw your first child do it too? I hope not.

      You don’t like the rape example? How about someone tries to car-jack you. What’s your response: Offer them a ride? Or, maybe when your children demand candy do you respond with an offer of ice cream later or tell them flat out “NO”?

      Tell you what Jack – If raising taxes is such an awesome economic stimulating thing, why doesn’t Gov. Schwartzinager of CA or Gov. Patterson of NY sign an Exutive Order right NOW to simpley DOUBLE the state tax rates and be done with it? By your philosophy taxes are a good thing so that would solve CA’s and NY’s budget problems on the spot, right?

      ps- Don’t get me started on Medicare Part-D. I know well first hand the crap that it is! :-(

  18. Jack Clark says:

    “Democraticly controlled at the time – to cut spending later. That didn’t happen. Hence the problem.”

    Yes but the tax increase in ’82 was Reagan’s idea.

    And even if we supposed he didn’t like it, it’s not like he tried to veto the tax increase and make Congress override the veto.

    He signed off on it, period.

    “Bottom line: What’s past doesn’t justify what is being done NOW.”

    Very true but, neither party has the political will to change the business as usual.
    If you’re going to demonize the Left, make sure you’re fair and balanced and demonize the Right for the same thing because they have done nothing different.

    “By your philosophy taxes are a good thing so that would solve CA’s and NY’s budget problems on the spot, right?”

    That’s not my philosophy.

    My philosophy is that we are not getting this country out of its fiscal hole with out a major spending freeze, something which neither Left nor Right has had the stomach to pull off, and tax increases.

    I don’t like the idea of a tax increase anymore than you, but the reality is there really is no other way with the way the current political system is run.

    That’s why I’m cautiously optimistic that maybe some of ideas the Tea Party candidates have will rub off on the other two parties and that will lead the country forward instead of staying stagnant.

    • Rick Beagle says:

      What a novel idea, cut spending, increase revenue….

      Let me add a little bit to that in stating that our spending should be laser like in it’s focus – creating jobs and improving the economy should be jobs numbers 1 and 2. Keeping the masses from revolting, ie extending unemployment should be in the top three as well imho.

      Also, this is not just a federal issue, the states need to clean up their act as well.

      Peace.
      Rick Beagle

      • MasterPo says:

        “Keeping the masses from revolting, ie extending unemployment should be in the top three as well imho”

        You mean bribing people to stay lazy.

        Bread and circuses.

        • Rick Beagle says:

          Lipton,
          Let me understand this, so in your version of the world, there are no lack of jobs (despite your previous comments to the contrary), but rather just lazy job seekers? You off your meds again masterpo?

          Well, at least you aren’t claiming that illegals are taking all the jobs and committing all the crimes. Nothing like rewarding the malfeasance of the rich while playing a “blame shell game” on the poorest of the poor. Not that I support illegal activities, just find the focus a bit pathetic in light of the last two years. Perhaps we should make all the legal brown people wear stars on their chests? Hmm, blaming an ethnic group for economic and social troubles… why does that seem familiar?

          BTW love how citizens united has resulted in the republican party getting a windfall this election cycle. anything for a win I suppose. who cares what the long term ramifications are. long term thinking has never been their strong suit so I guess no one should be surprised.

          Bah, this thread has gone on long enough.
          peace.
          RB

  19. Jack Clark says:

    “You mean bribing people to stay lazy.”

    Po you truly are an idiot and heartless.

    First let me give you another example of why the GOP is a clueless and dead party.

    In PA yesterday Tom Corbett, who is the AG and is running for Governor, made a comment very similar to yours in a speech about unemployment encouraging laziness and that Obama and the Left were lying about the unemployment numbers for political gain.

    He then went on to say that the jobs are out there for anyone who wants one and that people should look through the Democratic façade that unemployment is really 10%.

    His PR people have defended his idiotic statement by saying that they were told by ONE business owner, a plumbing company, about ONE job that fit this description of where a job seeker said that he didn’t want to work until he exhausted his benefits. (Of course neither Mr. Corbett nor his people will state which plumbing company so that his claim can be fact checked)

    So Mr. Corbett and the GOP decided to make a blanket statement on this for the whole state of PA and the whole country.

    Let’s punish a thousand for the stupidity of one. Great line of thinking.

    What’s been the fallout so far?

    Everyone from people in his party to almost every media outlet in PA has crucified him as insensitive, out of touch, and unelectable.

    (And before you say that PA is some bastion of liberalism, it’s not. Outside of Philly, the Philly burbs and Pittsburgh the rest of the state is 100% conservative. It’s something around 55 out of 65 counties voted against the current Democratic Governor last election.)

    Corbett ended his chances of being Governor.

    You’re line of thinking on this subject, while you are certainly entitled to have it, is elitist, uneducated, and truly shows again why the GOP and their thinking are dead and will get hammered in November.

    When the unemployment rate, whatever your political persuasion, is clearly out of control the last thing you should be doing as a politician, or as a human being, is pissing on the millions of people who have been screwed and right now need the help that only the federal government can and should provide.

    • MasterPo says:

      I already told you my story of being unemployed and having unemp ins running out. Got me off my ass to take *some* kind of job. If I had 2-3-whatever years of unemp I probably wouldn’t have.

      There was a story in our local news of a construction company with work to be done but can’t find people to do it.

      Why?

      Because the job pays $25-$50 LESS than unemp!

      Let me type it slower for you: For a great many people it is more beneficial to stay on unemp than to work!!

      Great system you have there.

      I’m not saying there should be no unemp. But where do you draw the line?!

      VP Biden said: *8 MILLION* jobs are *NEVER* coming back.

      So what now?!?!?!?!

      • Rick Beagle says:

        Hmm….

        A new FedEx terminal is opening up here in our area, and just posted 200 or so job ranging between $10-12 an hour. Thousands showed up, and even more applied for these jobs.

        While it is possible that your construction company exists, and that it actually advertised the jobs, it seems unlikely. But now that it has gained some advertisement, I suspect the business has plenty of applications (assuming its not another figment of the GOP fiction department).

        As to where do you draw the line, if you were unemployed and doing your best to get employed, where would you want the line to be drawn? Put yourself in their shoes, we spend trillions on bailing out wall street and the banking industry for their malfeasance, provide these same fools tax breaks on their ill gotten gains (bush’s tax reduction for the wealthiest), and two wars (bush’s legacy); why can we not spend a fraction of that to help in excess of 10% of our population stay on their feet and get employed?

        Insofar as your comment about the 8 million jobs not coming back, you grossly misunderstood the quote. Those 8 million jobs are not coming back, but jobs are coming back, just in different areas. This is a perfect example of the short sighted thinking of the GOP, investing in Green Energy (despite what nonsense you hear, it is a viable and booming industry worldwide), and other like minded initiatives will help move our economy forward.

        Oh, I know what you are thinking, there is an conservative idiom that states something to the effect that the federal government does not create jobs but only private businesses. You have all heard this before right? I drink this cup of Tang, and surf the internet all the while laughing at their ignorance.

        In conclusion, trickling up is the American way to encourage a meritocracy, while trickling down creates class warfare, and enables our current corporate abuses.

        Peace.
        Rick Beagle

      • Rick Beagle says:

        “Dynastic wealth, the enemy of a meritocracy, is on the rise. Equality of opportunity has been on the decline,” Buffett said. “A progressive and meaningful estate tax is needed to curb the movement of a democracy toward plutocracy.”

        I’m on a roll today, and thought I would share that too, courtesy of the WSJ comments section.

        Peace.
        Rick Beagle

  20. Rick Beagle says:

    Oh wow, I had to share this with you folks. This is from the WSJ, and I share it for no motivation other than it’s unintended humor. From the picture to the point of the article, it all had me laughing out loud. I share in hopes you find it as funny as I.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703609004575355572928371574.html

    Have a good one folks.
    RBeagle

  21. MasterPo says:

    “Those 8 million jobs are not coming back, but jobs are coming back, just in different areas. ”

    So the 45 y/o CPA with 20 years experience is to be happy now making $10-$12/hr loading FedEx trucks?

    News Flash: You don’t grow an economy that way!

    A job is not a job.

    ps- “Trickle Up” – ROTFLMAO!!!

    pps- I think Buffet has been sniffing cow manuer a bit too long. Some of the things he’s said in the last couple of years has me thinking the Oracle of the ages is past his prime and ready for a nice retirement.

    • Rick Beagle says:

      “So the 45 y/o CPA with 20 years experience is to be happy now making $10-$12/hr loading FedEx trucks?
      News Flash: You don’t grow an economy that way!”

      I am not sure where you pulled this little bit of circular logic from, but nowhere in any of my posts did I suggest that a CPA work at fedex? Seriously, your posts get more illogical by the day. I will let you take your meds, a deep breath, or whatever it takes, and let you rethink your response.

    • Rick Beagle says:

      MasterPo.

      I think these folks are talking about you and your tea bagger kindred.

      http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/

      It is a good read, but I doubt you will make the connection.

    • avery says:

      Yeah I must say, I’ve lost respect for Buffett over the past few years.

  22. avery says:

    We went with goldmoney – allocated accounts, no counter party risk, can have $ wired into your checking if such is one’s desire:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldMoney

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