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	<title>Comments on: Avoid the Bond Fund Trap</title>
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	<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/</link>
	<description>The Hard Truth about Money and Personal Finance</description>
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		<title>By: Robert Wasilewski</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7673</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Wasilewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7673</guid>
		<description>Question: Where does everyone come up with the idea that bond funds do not hold most bonds to maturity? This is something that is repeated over tme and people just accept it. They do some trading but they hold a lot to maturity.
Is everyone sure rates are going higher? Then short the market. An easy way would be to buy TBT. I&#039;d be careful though - it is very risky. The point is that if you are so sure rates are gong higher there is a way to play it.
A more conservative way would be to buy a ETF comprised of adjustable rate bonds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question: Where does everyone come up with the idea that bond funds do not hold most bonds to maturity? This is something that is repeated over tme and people just accept it. They do some trading but they hold a lot to maturity.<br />
Is everyone sure rates are going higher? Then short the market. An easy way would be to buy TBT. I&#8217;d be careful though &#8211; it is very risky. The point is that if you are so sure rates are gong higher there is a way to play it.<br />
A more conservative way would be to buy a ETF comprised of adjustable rate bonds.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7670</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7670</guid>
		<description>&quot;Shaken, not stirred&quot; - James Bond

The time to get into bond funds was about three years ago, when greed was in full control of the stock market.  To do so now, with interest rates at close to zero and soon to rise, would be a huge mistake.  Even Bill Gross (The head of PIMCO) is saying whoa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Shaken, not stirred&#8221; &#8211; James Bond</p>
<p>The time to get into bond funds was about three years ago, when greed was in full control of the stock market.  To do so now, with interest rates at close to zero and soon to rise, would be a huge mistake.  Even Bill Gross (The head of PIMCO) is saying whoa.</p>
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		<title>By: MasterPo</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7653</link>
		<dc:creator>MasterPo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7653</guid>
		<description>Kitty -

1) Most bond funds rarely hold bonds - even short term bonds - to maturity. Not sure who gets stuck with it at maturity but usually not the fund.

2) What is &quot;enough&quot;? There is no answer. Trying to predict how much you will need for a 10-20-even 30 year retirement period is reading tea leaves at best. Toss in 2-3 years of high inflation (do you REALLY believe there was no inflation in 2009? And won&#039;t be any in 2010 either?!) and your money reserves just crashed and burned.

Without getting another job equities are the only way to try (no promises) to compensate for the unknown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kitty -</p>
<p>1) Most bond funds rarely hold bonds &#8211; even short term bonds &#8211; to maturity. Not sure who gets stuck with it at maturity but usually not the fund.</p>
<p>2) What is &#8220;enough&#8221;? There is no answer. Trying to predict how much you will need for a 10-20-even 30 year retirement period is reading tea leaves at best. Toss in 2-3 years of high inflation (do you REALLY believe there was no inflation in 2009? And won&#8217;t be any in 2010 either?!) and your money reserves just crashed and burned.</p>
<p>Without getting another job equities are the only way to try (no promises) to compensate for the unknown.</p>
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		<title>By: kitty</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7650</link>
		<dc:creator>kitty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Apr 2010 02:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7650</guid>
		<description>Avery - in addition to what Master Po said. If you are in a bond fund, the individual bonds in the fund have different coupon rate and different maturity. So while the value of current bonds in the fund goes down when the interest rates go up, the new bonds that a fund buys get new higher rate. So eventually, this higher rate on new bonds may compensate for the loss in value, but it&#039;ll take time. Sometimes manager doesn&#039;t wait to maturity, and sells at a loss. A bond fund with shorter duration bonds is less volatile.

Now if you have individual bonds, you can ignore the fluctuation and wait to maturity. But you need a certain amount of money to buy enough individual bonds as the are sold in lots of 5 of $1000 in face value each lot, so the minimum investment is around $5000. I say around because it is $5000 in face value of bonds, but you pay less if the bond is selling at a discount (i.e. below its face value) and more if it is selling at a premium. So if you want to be diversified, you need to have money to buy many issues. Then, you will not get compounding unless you have enough money in bonds that the bond&#039;s interest paid twice a year is enough for another bond issue.  

@MasterPo - regarding exposure to equity. It&#039;s really all depends on how much return one needs. If one already has enough money for retirement or one&#039;s situation is such that he can save enough without risk, than why take any risk? There is no need to risk more money than necesary to achieve one&#039;s goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avery &#8211; in addition to what Master Po said. If you are in a bond fund, the individual bonds in the fund have different coupon rate and different maturity. So while the value of current bonds in the fund goes down when the interest rates go up, the new bonds that a fund buys get new higher rate. So eventually, this higher rate on new bonds may compensate for the loss in value, but it&#8217;ll take time. Sometimes manager doesn&#8217;t wait to maturity, and sells at a loss. A bond fund with shorter duration bonds is less volatile.</p>
<p>Now if you have individual bonds, you can ignore the fluctuation and wait to maturity. But you need a certain amount of money to buy enough individual bonds as the are sold in lots of 5 of $1000 in face value each lot, so the minimum investment is around $5000. I say around because it is $5000 in face value of bonds, but you pay less if the bond is selling at a discount (i.e. below its face value) and more if it is selling at a premium. So if you want to be diversified, you need to have money to buy many issues. Then, you will not get compounding unless you have enough money in bonds that the bond&#8217;s interest paid twice a year is enough for another bond issue.  </p>
<p>@MasterPo &#8211; regarding exposure to equity. It&#8217;s really all depends on how much return one needs. If one already has enough money for retirement or one&#8217;s situation is such that he can save enough without risk, than why take any risk? There is no need to risk more money than necesary to achieve one&#8217;s goals.</p>
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		<title>By: MasterPo</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7643</link>
		<dc:creator>MasterPo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 04:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7643</guid>
		<description>&quot;Rate&quot; and &quot;yield&quot; are two different things.

The rate of a bond is the fixed (in most cases) interest amount it pays while the yield of a bond takes into account the market value of the bond.

So if you have a 5% and interest rates go down that bond is worth a lot more than just 5%. That is because to get 5% when rates are otherwise lower you have to pay more which offsets the value of the intrest income stream. The value of the bond goes up so the yield goes down because now you have a bit of capital appreciation with it.

By contrast, if rates go up 5% is worth less so the value of the bond goes down. Therefore the yield of a 5% is higher because you&#039;re getting 5% at a lower price.

Therefore to answer your question more precisely, when rates drop the value of higher interest bonds goes up and there for the yield goes down. And similarly when rates go up the value of the bonds goes down and the yield goes up.

Some bond funds list the average coupon rate of their holdings. Many don&#039;t though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Rate&#8221; and &#8220;yield&#8221; are two different things.</p>
<p>The rate of a bond is the fixed (in most cases) interest amount it pays while the yield of a bond takes into account the market value of the bond.</p>
<p>So if you have a 5% and interest rates go down that bond is worth a lot more than just 5%. That is because to get 5% when rates are otherwise lower you have to pay more which offsets the value of the intrest income stream. The value of the bond goes up so the yield goes down because now you have a bit of capital appreciation with it.</p>
<p>By contrast, if rates go up 5% is worth less so the value of the bond goes down. Therefore the yield of a 5% is higher because you&#8217;re getting 5% at a lower price.</p>
<p>Therefore to answer your question more precisely, when rates drop the value of higher interest bonds goes up and there for the yield goes down. And similarly when rates go up the value of the bonds goes down and the yield goes up.</p>
<p>Some bond funds list the average coupon rate of their holdings. Many don&#8217;t though.</p>
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		<title>By: avery</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7639</link>
		<dc:creator>avery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7639</guid>
		<description>So when rates rise, the bond fund value declines, but my question is - don&#039;t yields in the fund then increase because of the rate increase, to some extent offsetting the loss?

We are pretty heavily tilted to stock index funds, and rode out the crisis without making any changes; however, the experience taught me that I do want to rebalance to a greater allocation in bond index funds.  The crisis and since have given me a look at &#039;political risk.&#039;  This experience made me realize my risk tolerance is not so very high after all.

But I haven&#039;t changed anything yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So when rates rise, the bond fund value declines, but my question is &#8211; don&#8217;t yields in the fund then increase because of the rate increase, to some extent offsetting the loss?</p>
<p>We are pretty heavily tilted to stock index funds, and rode out the crisis without making any changes; however, the experience taught me that I do want to rebalance to a greater allocation in bond index funds.  The crisis and since have given me a look at &#8216;political risk.&#8217;  This experience made me realize my risk tolerance is not so very high after all.</p>
<p>But I haven&#8217;t changed anything yet.</p>
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		<title>By: MasterPo</title>
		<link>http://toughmoneylove.com/2010/03/30/avoid-bond-fund-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-7631</link>
		<dc:creator>MasterPo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 04:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=5445#comment-7631</guid>
		<description>Without getting into very complex investments, short answer: You can&#039;t.

You need some equity exposure.

It&#039;s just a matter of how much you can handle risk wise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without getting into very complex investments, short answer: You can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>You need some equity exposure.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just a matter of how much you can handle risk wise.</p>
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