Comments on: Will Prospective Law Students Listen to the Hard Truth? http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/ The Hard Truth about Money and Personal Finance Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:37:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Attorney desperately seeking employment http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-7387 Attorney desperately seeking employment Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:16:08 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-7387 WE NEED AN ORGANIZATION THAT UNITES ATTORNEYS AGAINST ABA. If med schools can limit their number to 131 and Dentists can limit dental schools to about 58, then we can surely keep the number of law schools under control. The whole thing is a scam. I graduated from Texas Southern University law school - some of my professors were barely literate. Except for a few good professors, most did nothing for me. They have a mysterious double grading system that undercuts students who secure good grades on their merit. There are other terrible law schools out there and plenty of terrible lawyers because of it. The law schools, including mine, inflate their post-graduation employment figures by hiring graduates from menial temporary jobs or by outright lying. ABA leadership is heavily composed of law school administrators and Big Law attorneys, while majority of Attorneys in america dont fall into the big-law category and these are the people who are struggling to find jobs. The average lawyer is severely unpaid, her/his pay undercut by the huge numbers of graduates being churned out of diploma mill law schools every year. On top of that , ABA has allowed outsourcing, this has severely cut the basic work unemployed attorneys depended on - document review. The average attorney is squeezed from all sides with ABA doing more to hurt her/him. The medical field takes care of its own. The dental field takes care of its own. But the only people the ABA takes care of are 1. the deans of trashy law schools like mine who make a million or more a year and 2. the Big law firms that benefit from getting their document work done by ridiculously underpaid attorneys in the US or abroad. ABA, please stop this madness! stop this corruption! You have destroyed not only our livelihood but the prestige we worked so hard to get. WE NEED AN ORGANIZATION THAT UNITES ATTORNEYS AGAINST ABA. If med schools can limit their number to 131 and Dentists can limit dental schools to about 58, then we can surely keep the number of law schools under control. The whole thing is a scam. I graduated from Texas Southern University law school – some of my professors were barely literate. Except for a few good professors, most did nothing for me. They have a mysterious double grading system that undercuts students who secure good grades on their merit. There are other terrible law schools out there and plenty of terrible lawyers because of it. The law schools, including mine, inflate their post-graduation employment figures by hiring graduates from menial temporary jobs or by outright lying. ABA leadership is heavily composed of law school administrators and Big Law attorneys, while majority of Attorneys in america dont fall into the big-law category and these are the people who are struggling to find jobs. The average lawyer is severely unpaid, her/his pay undercut by the huge numbers of graduates being churned out of diploma mill law schools every year. On top of that , ABA has allowed outsourcing, this has severely cut the basic work unemployed attorneys depended on – document review. The average attorney is squeezed from all sides with ABA doing more to hurt her/him. The medical field takes care of its own. The dental field takes care of its own. But the only people the ABA takes care of are 1. the deans of trashy law schools like mine who make a million or more a year and 2. the Big law firms that benefit from getting their document work done by ridiculously underpaid attorneys in the US or abroad. ABA, please stop this madness! stop this corruption! You have destroyed not only our livelihood but the prestige we worked so hard to get.

]]> By: Funny about Money http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-6208 Funny about Money Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:25:41 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-6208 Young people need to consider exactly <i>what</i> law school prepares you to do and then decide if anything in that spectrum of opportunities (and pay range) is what they really want to do. Not all law school graduates walk into $80,000-plus jobs. Most starting jobs in law firms are surprisingly ill paid. A good firm expects you to show up around 7:00 a.m. and be there until midnight. Your performance is, to a large extent, assessed according to the number of billable hours you file. Then, if you're lucky, you make partner... My ex- was a corporate lawyer. He worked six days a week at one of the most prestigious firms in the Southwest. He didn't show up at the office much before 8:00 a.m. and he left around 5:30 or 6:00 p.m. This branded him as a "nine-to-five lawyer," about the worst thing a high-powered lawyer can imagine to say about a colleague. He was shoehorned out because, one of his former partners remarked at an event where he thought he wasn't being overheard, "he just didn't want to do the work." "Doing the work" entailed following the model set by one of the partners who was hired in the same year the ex- joined the firm. This guy got up at 4:00 a.m. to run for 40 minutes or an hour. Showered, threw on a suit and tie, left for work no later than 5:30 a.m. Bolted a miserable breakfast on the way in; arrived at the office by 6:00. He never, ever left the office before 10:00 p.m. He went to work seven days a week. He and his wife took "separate vacations" (meaning she had a vacation with the kids and without her husband; he kept on working). You wanna work like that? By all means, go to law school. You could start your own practice as a dirty-shirt lawyer. To do that, you'll need a few years of experience at a firm (see above) or as a county prosecutor or defender (check the pay range). You could try an environmental or legal aid practice (see above, under "pay range"). As a college professor, I have met 30-ish lawyers who so loved the practice of law that they came back to college to pick up a teaching certificate, qualifying them for a job with a starting pay of $24,000. That should tell you something. Young people need to consider exactly what law school prepares you to do and then decide if anything in that spectrum of opportunities (and pay range) is what they really want to do.

Not all law school graduates walk into $80,000-plus jobs. Most starting jobs in law firms are surprisingly ill paid. A good firm expects you to show up around 7:00 a.m. and be there until midnight. Your performance is, to a large extent, assessed according to the number of billable hours you file. Then, if you’re lucky, you make partner…

My ex- was a corporate lawyer. He worked six days a week at one of the most prestigious firms in the Southwest. He didn’t show up at the office much before 8:00 a.m. and he left around 5:30 or 6:00 p.m. This branded him as a “nine-to-five lawyer,” about the worst thing a high-powered lawyer can imagine to say about a colleague. He was shoehorned out because, one of his former partners remarked at an event where he thought he wasn’t being overheard, “he just didn’t want to do the work.”

“Doing the work” entailed following the model set by one of the partners who was hired in the same year the ex- joined the firm. This guy got up at 4:00 a.m. to run for 40 minutes or an hour. Showered, threw on a suit and tie, left for work no later than 5:30 a.m. Bolted a miserable breakfast on the way in; arrived at the office by 6:00. He never, ever left the office before 10:00 p.m. He went to work seven days a week. He and his wife took “separate vacations” (meaning she had a vacation with the kids and without her husband; he kept on working).

You wanna work like that? By all means, go to law school.

You could start your own practice as a dirty-shirt lawyer. To do that, you’ll need a few years of experience at a firm (see above) or as a county prosecutor or defender (check the pay range).

You could try an environmental or legal aid practice (see above, under “pay range”).

As a college professor, I have met 30-ish lawyers who so loved the practice of law that they came back to college to pick up a teaching certificate, qualifying them for a job with a starting pay of $24,000. That should tell you something.

]]> By: Rick Beagle http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-6088 Rick Beagle Wed, 07 Oct 2009 10:58:37 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-6088 "In terms of PeaceCorp or doing other stuff between school and college is that 1) if you do it by the time you go to college you’ll forget much of what you learn in school and will have to spend time remembering it or even take extra courses 2) as we grow older we lose some of our abilities such as memory and maybe even creativity, the younger we are the better we learn 3) in some fields, it already takes too long to get out of school e.g. doctors are already almost 30 by the time they are done with school and residency 4) in some fields, you lose your skills if you take a break 5) in some fields, especially in performing arts, the time is of the essense 6) physical labor is accident-prone and if it may be not a big deal for most people, for a surgeon or a pianist damaging one’s hand is disastrous. I don’t discount the idea, but in some cases it makes sense to do community service type work after college and related to one’s field – e.g. a doctor’s education can be subsidized on a condition that he or she does some community work thereafter; a performing arts major can perform. In many countries where there is a draft, there are postponements if one is accepted to specific (or all) colleges." Kitty, I think we need to take a step back. I am not suggesting that a person with a desire to become a surgeon head off the side of the Hoover Dam with some caulking in his hands. Rather, I am suggesting that there are a large number of things that need to be done around the country and that the Job Corp and organizations like it, could provide a conduit between those desiring a skill set and actually obtaining said skill while helping out our communities and our nation. In an effort to illustrate this point, a person desiring medical training could obtain some of it by working in a hospital as an intern, or something akin to that sort of arrangement. I think it offers another avenue to pursue their goals, provides them with real world experience, and helps encourage a generation of youth to give back to their communities. Peace. Rick Beagle “In terms of PeaceCorp or doing other stuff between school and college is that 1) if you do it by the time you go to college you’ll forget much of what you learn in school and will have to spend time remembering it or even take extra courses 2) as we grow older we lose some of our abilities such as memory and maybe even creativity, the younger we are the better we learn 3) in some fields, it already takes too long to get out of school e.g. doctors are already almost 30 by the time they are done with school and residency 4) in some fields, you lose your skills if you take a break 5) in some fields, especially in performing arts, the time is of the essense 6) physical labor is accident-prone and if it may be not a big deal for most people, for a surgeon or a pianist damaging one’s hand is disastrous. I don’t discount the idea, but in some cases it makes sense to do community service type work after college and related to one’s field – e.g. a doctor’s education can be subsidized on a condition that he or she does some community work thereafter; a performing arts major can perform. In many countries where there is a draft, there are postponements if one is accepted to specific (or all) colleges.”

Kitty, I think we need to take a step back. I am not suggesting that a person with a desire to become a surgeon head off the side of the Hoover Dam with some caulking in his hands. Rather, I am suggesting that there are a large number of things that need to be done around the country and that the Job Corp and organizations like it, could provide a conduit between those desiring a skill set and actually obtaining said skill while helping out our communities and our nation.

In an effort to illustrate this point, a person desiring medical training could obtain some of it by working in a hospital as an intern, or something akin to that sort of arrangement. I think it offers another avenue to pursue their goals, provides them with real world experience, and helps encourage a generation of youth to give back to their communities.

Peace.
Rick Beagle

]]> By: Todd @ Personal Finance Playbook http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-6078 Todd @ Personal Finance Playbook Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:52:26 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-6078 I agree with you. I've personally tried to deter people from going to law school - unless they can get into a top 10 school or so. There's room in every profession for people that are the very best. The legal profession has become over crowded. In my experience, though, you can't talk someone out of going to law school. Everyone assumes that things are different for them. I agree with you. I’ve personally tried to deter people from going to law school – unless they can get into a top 10 school or so. There’s room in every profession for people that are the very best. The legal profession has become over crowded.

In my experience, though, you can’t talk someone out of going to law school. Everyone assumes that things are different for them.

]]> By: MasterPo http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-6046 MasterPo Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:50:23 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-6046 Kay - Regarding graduates in fields with poor job prospects, while I totally agree, that isn't necessarily the function of a college/university per se. That is, college isn't always about vocational training. There are many fields of study I totally agree that there is little practical job-call for (other than teaching, maybe). But the offering of a field of study in college shouldn't necessarily be taken as an indication there is a job market for it. Much is up to the student to look into the field and decide "What happens after I get this degree? What do I do then?", which unfortunatel not many students do. But I don't blame the schools for it. Then again, many moons ago I did read a newspaper article about a girl who sued here college for having awarded her a degree in a subject (don't recall what) that didn't have a field at all! But then too, recently I saw an ad for a Masters degree in International Negotiation. The ad gave examples of negotiating government treaties, anti-terrorist activities, negotiation of U.N. type functions etc. Just how many jobs like that *really* exist?? Kay – Regarding graduates in fields with poor job prospects, while I totally agree, that isn’t necessarily the function of a college/university per se. That is, college isn’t always about vocational training. There are many fields of study I totally agree that there is little practical job-call for (other than teaching, maybe). But the offering of a field of study in college shouldn’t necessarily be taken as an indication there is a job market for it.

Much is up to the student to look into the field and decide “What happens after I get this degree? What do I do then?”, which unfortunatel not many students do. But I don’t blame the schools for it.

Then again, many moons ago I did read a newspaper article about a girl who sued here college for having awarded her a degree in a subject (don’t recall what) that didn’t have a field at all!

But then too, recently I saw an ad for a Masters degree in International Negotiation. The ad gave examples of negotiating government treaties, anti-terrorist activities, negotiation of U.N. type functions etc. Just how many jobs like that *really* exist??

]]> By: Kay http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-6033 Kay Thu, 01 Oct 2009 00:06:26 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-6033 Having young family members in both law and medical school, I am amazed at the tuition. But is it any worse than the cost of a degree from a university that there is not chance of getting a decent paying job to cover educational loans. There are majors at universities that will let a student graduate with a piece of paper, but not prepare them into a field that will be effective in getting a decent paycheck for the what they committed, both time and money. In other words, it's not just law school. I agree that our high schools have become what our community colleges were, our community colleges are becoming what our four year college were, and our four year colleges have expanded to be five or six years incorperating what used to be covered in a graduate program. It may be the pace of education, but it also is asking young student to select career tracks very early on. We also have many scholarship programs in place that reward students to go into fields of study with "least resistance". Many scholarships require students to maintain a grade point average that is higher than passing "C". A student on scholarship learns quickly if they drop their grade point average to below a "B" in many cases, they loose the scholarship funds. This happens with no regards to majors. So a student who is in a technical field such as science and math area (as we all say we need more of), getting a combination of B and C grades, will change majors to a field that is less technical in order to keep the scholarship in place. Having young family members in both law and medical school, I am amazed at the tuition. But is it any worse than the cost of a degree from a university that there is not chance of getting a decent paying job to cover educational loans. There are majors at universities that will let a student graduate with a piece of paper, but not prepare them into a field that will be effective in getting a decent paycheck for the what they committed, both time and money. In other words, it’s not just law school.
I agree that our high schools have become what our community colleges were, our community colleges are becoming what our four year college were, and our four year colleges have expanded to be five or six years incorperating what used to be covered in a graduate program. It may be the pace of education, but it also is asking young student to select career tracks very early on.
We also have many scholarship programs in place that reward students to go into fields of study with “least resistance”. Many scholarships require students to maintain a grade point average that is higher than passing “C”. A student on scholarship learns quickly if they drop their grade point average to below a “B” in many cases, they loose the scholarship funds. This happens with no regards to majors. So a student who is in a technical field such as science and math area (as we all say we need more of), getting a combination of B and C grades, will change majors to a field that is less technical in order to keep the scholarship in place.

]]> By: MasterPo http://toughmoneylove.com/2009/09/25/prospective-law-students-hard-truth/comment-page-1/#comment-5999 MasterPo Mon, 28 Sep 2009 02:29:53 +0000 http://toughmoneylove.com/?p=4626#comment-5999 Lurker is correct in that too many are in college that shouldn't be there in so far as they just don't have the "talent" for spending 4 more years in school, *really* gaining useful information (as oppose to partying all the time), and then apply it for the long haul in a real-career field. As I've said here before (though I don'tlike repeating myself) the public education system has screwed students for the last 50 years at least with the concept that ALL children *deserve* (the right?) to go to college. This as opposed to tracking those who just don't have the academic abilities into a more vocational training path where they COULD earn a good wage doing REAL services any society needs, if not the most glamorous jobs out there. TML - I'm not going to debate Law School costs per se, but you (and others) have made the same cost/benefit analysis about going to college altogether and I just can't buy that. Even at TWICE the current cost, the value of college - and even more gradute or post-graduate school - simply can not be evaluted in simple cash flow analysis terms. The very opportinities just to *apply* to some jobs while others w/o a degree couldn't even try is sometimes worth the cost IMO. And historically throughout human civilization those with education, as a group, ALWAYS do better than those without. ps- My sister-in-law started her law career making about $80k right out of school. She didn't go to an Ivy League school and IMO isn't the most competent legal advisor out there (yes my wife knows my opinion of her sister's professional skills ;-) ). pps- TML - Why not try the same cost/benefit analyis of going to medical school? Especially in light of Obama's desire to greatly restrict the earnings of doctors! Lurker is correct in that too many are in college that shouldn’t be there in so far as they just don’t have the “talent” for spending 4 more years in school, *really* gaining useful information (as oppose to partying all the time), and then apply it for the long haul in a real-career field.

As I’ve said here before (though I don’tlike repeating myself) the public education system has screwed students for the last 50 years at least with the concept that ALL children *deserve* (the right?) to go to college. This as opposed to tracking those who just don’t have the academic abilities into a more vocational training path where they COULD earn a good wage doing REAL services any society needs, if not the most glamorous jobs out there.

TML – I’m not going to debate Law School costs per se, but you (and others) have made the same cost/benefit analysis about going to college altogether and I just can’t buy that. Even at TWICE the current cost, the value of college – and even more gradute or post-graduate school – simply can not be evaluted in simple cash flow analysis terms. The very opportinities just to *apply* to some jobs while others w/o a degree couldn’t even try is sometimes worth the cost IMO. And historically throughout human civilization those with education, as a group, ALWAYS do better than those without.

ps- My sister-in-law started her law career making about $80k right out of school. She didn’t go to an Ivy League school and IMO isn’t the most competent legal advisor out there (yes my wife knows my opinion of her sister’s professional skills ;-) ).

pps- TML – Why not try the same cost/benefit analyis of going to medical school? Especially in light of Obama’s desire to greatly restrict the earnings of doctors!

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